The Military-Civilian Divide: Why Transition is More Than Culture Shock

JESSICA BECKENDORF (00:04)

Hi, welcome back to Practicing Connection. I’m Jessica, and I’m really glad to have my OneOp colleague Kim Smith joining me again, I think for the second time as a guest co-host today.

KIM SMITH (00:15)

Yes, the second time. Thank you, Jessica. I’m happy to be here again.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (00:20)

Well, one of the through lines of this podcast is that connection takes practice. It doesn’t just happen automatically because people care about each other.

KIM SMITH (00:30)

And today’s conversation is a great example of that idea applied to a really specific high stakes context, the transition from military to civilian life.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (00:41)

Our guest has spent his career studying what actually happens in that transition for service members, for veterans, and for the spouses and families who go through it right alongside them, often without ever having signed up for it themselves.

KIM SMITH (00:56)

And we’re going to talk about why the phrase culture shock doesn’t quite capture what’s going on, what civilian providers tend to miss, and what it looks like to treat career struggles and mental health struggles as the same conversation instead of two separate appointments.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (01:14)

Yeah, and before we get into it, I definitely want to give Kim a proper introduction because this topic is very much in your wheelhouse, Kim.

So Kim Smith is the spouse employment program coordinator at OneOp, where she designs professional development for those serving military families. She has more than 25 years of experience in higher education with a focus on access and opportunity.

KIM SMITH (01:37)

Well, thank you, Jessica. I appreciate that.

And I have the privilege of introducing our guest, Dr. Seth Hayden. He is an associate professor of counseling and coordinator of the Clinical Mental Health Program at Wake Forest University. His research sits right at the intersection of career development and mental health, with a particular focus on the career and personal development needs of military service members, veterans, and their families.

including some recent work specifically on military spouses navigating the transition to civilian life.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (02:13)

He’s also the author of Integrating Career Development and Mental Health Counseling and co-editor of Cognitive Information Processing Career Theory Research and Practice, which if today’s conversation goes anywhere near job searching, we may hear more about.

KIM SMITH (02:29)

Absolutely. He’s a licensed clinical mental health counselor in my home state of North Carolina and a past president of both the Military and Government Counseling Association and the National Career Development Association, which are two divisions of the American Counseling Association.

Dr. Hagen, welcome. We’re really glad to have you here.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (02:52)

Thank you so much. It’s great to be with you all.

KIM SMITH (02:54)

So Dr. Hayden, can you share a little more about how you found this work or how the work found you? How did you end up doing what you do today?

DR. SETH HAYDEN (03:04)

Yeah, so for me, it really started in my graduate studies. So I was a master’s student in counseling and I was learning how to do that work. And I was wanting to engage in some research.

And so I touched base with one of my professors and asked if there was anything that he was working on. And he indicated that he was doing some research on the experience of female service members. And I was like, “Well, I don’t know anything about that. So let me learn something about that.”

And that experience just captivated me because I was sitting there, because I’m a civilian, I have not served in the military. And I remember thinking as we were starting to explore that topic, how little I knew. And what would that be like for me as a civilian provider to encounter someone who is having that experience?

And so that’s when I kind of started making that commitment to wanting to learn more about that and to think about me as a clinician, but also me as a researcher. How can we develop knowledge specific to counseling practice to support that population?

And so I’ve continued that work, worked in different environments that are associated with the military, done work with Wounded Warrior Project, worked with the Defense and Veterans Brain Engineer Center in Virginia when I was there. And I still continue to do pro bono work here for a nonprofit that serves veterans who are experiencing homelessness.

And so there’s a clinical element to it, but there’s also a research element to it. And my hope is that we can combine those things to provide quality services to those associated with the military experience in our country.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (04:45)

That sense of curiosity is what we talk about a lot on this podcast, hoping to kind of bridge that divide between the service providers who know that their entire list of clients are military families, and then those who are like out in a rural community who might have a few military families in their client list were always hoping to build that curiosity of like not only.

What does it mean to be a service member or their family experiencing some of the things that they might be experiencing, but also, you know, who else cares about these issues? And so that curiosity that you had that you described, I’m very grateful that you described it that way because that’s exactly what we’re always trying to encourage on this podcast. So thank you.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (05:33)

And I think it’s important too to kind of think about the fact that you are likely to encounter someone who’s had this experience, even if it’s not a specific clinical specialty for you. I mean, I just think that that’s an interesting consideration, because there are times where we specialize as counselors in particular things, and you may not see the military as those things you want to specialize in.

But if you come from someone who grew up in a military family, if you’re working with a spouse. You work with a service member or a veteran. I mean, that they can walk through your door and there you are. And then you’re providing those services.

And so I do think at times it’s important, regardless of if it’s like this is the primary thing of that I’m going to do, like I’m going to work with those who are associated with the military on a on a frequent basis, or you might encounter, as you said, you might be out in a place that’s a little removed from maybe a military installation or anything, and someone walks through your door and they have that in their story.

And so therefore how are you going to ensure that you do a good job in working with them however you come across them?

JESSICA BECKENDORF (06:37)

Yeah. Well, I came from a family who moved. My father served in the Navy for 21 years, and we moved to a rural community when he retired when he was transitioning from military life to civilian life. And so let’s dive into this military civilian divide that we’ve talked about kind of off recording. How would you define the military-civian divide in practical terms? Sort of getting beyond the kind of abstract idea of like culture shock, which is difficult to put into practice, right? “It’s just culture shock.”

DR. SETH HAYDEN (07:12)

I would see it as there’s a different experience that’s unique within each environment and it plays out in many different ways. I think it plays out in how people work, it plays out in how people exist within their families, it plays out in how just people interact with the world. And so there’s so many different ways in which it manifests. But I do see it as a cultural element.

So we did some research actually at one point asking people like me, those who prepare counselors, if they saw the military experience as a cultural one, not an occupational one, but a cultural one. And people strongly endorsed that they saw it as more of a cultural experience than an occupational experience, which I think is really interesting because I think that affects how we as counselors approach it, if it’s a cultural consideration versus simply an occupational one.

Less than one percent of our population in the United States serves in the military. So when we think about that just from a pure like population proportion standpoint, we can exist within our culture and not necessarily come in contact with someone who’s having that experience. And so I do think that as civilians, we have a responsibility, given that reality, to ensure that, given it’s a cultural question, given that we may or may not come in contact with someone who’s had that experience, that we take some responsibility in learning as much as we can about that, because we do have civilian control of our military in our country.

I know there’s a lot of things that go into that, but you know, there are people who are being tasked with going and doing these extraordinary things. And so then what responsibility do we bear as people within our society in trying to understand as much as we can about that experience and ensuring that that shift between these different sets of values and perspectives, culture shock, whatever you would like to term it, that we can ease that transition as much as we can, given the extraordinary experiences they’ve had.

So that is my thought of how to think about it in a very practical way. I do think there are some kind of broader, kind of, philosophical elements that go along with that. But again, it comes back to what brought me to this work. I’m in my office as a counselor, someone comes in, it’s in their story. How do I ensure that goes well? And so that’s what I really try to focus my work on.

KIM SMITH (09:38)

You know, speaking of that responsibility, I imagine that understanding military culture would be essential for any counselor working with a military service member or family member. What would civilian providers benefit from knowing in relation to military culture when they try to help?

DR. SETH HAYDEN (09:57)

Yeah, there’s when I say military culture, I think there’s a lot of different dimensions to that. And as with most cultures, there’s a Yes, history, but there’s also a lot of within group difference as much as there is between group difference. So when we talk about military culture, there’s not one thing to talk about. And that’s what’s so interesting to me as we think about the different branches of the military, different occupational specialties within the military, the different time periods when people have served, their experience within the military.

Like there’s so many different layers to it. It’s a very complex picture, which we often paint as a monolithic picture. You know, we think about the person with the weapon, like that’s one way to look at it. But that is one of many different stories of those who are impacted by the military experience.

And so I think it’s important to get curious about that, to take some responsibility and being willing to learn about that. If I’m working, just one very basic example, if I’m working with someone who’s in the army, you know, and I call them a sailor, or if I’m working with someone in the Navy and I call them a soldier, like that language is very specific. It’s a, you know, there’s a way of talking, there’s a way of describing things. And those things are important.

And so it’s important for me to learn those things to the degree that I can. What was the experience of serving in Vietnam like versus the experience of serving in Iraq and Afghanistan? Those things were different. Now there are similarities, but definitely some differences.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (11:37)

Based on branch again within those experiences.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (11:39)

Exactly. Yes. And then officer and enlisted and all these different kinds of things. So I say all that to come back to your original thought that it’s important for me to do some work, to learn as much as I can, to get curious about people’s experience, to take some responsibility. So it’s not just them teaching me, but I’ve shown that I’m willing to do some homework and learn that. And to contextualize whatever they’re sharing with me within that experience.

So relational difficulties, occupational difficulties, like in what way is the context of your military experience influencing these things, I think is something that would be useful to kind of think about whatever the presenting concern is within that broader context of their military experience.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (12:29)

So I’d love to ask a little bit of a follow-up on that because what’s coming up in my mind when I think of and and and look, this episode is not meant to sort of focus only on that kind of rural provider, service provider who might have one or two or three military families or veterans in their client list.

And yet I think about that person a lot because when you say, you know, it’s it’s one thing that we need to do is get curious and show that we’re willing to learn a little something about their experience. It sounds like a lot of work, and it’s really important work. And I recognize that. And I think we do need to do it. And also like, client lists are full. I guess my question that I’m trying to find here is, we know it’s really important. And I think that’s why we’re having this conversation.

And also you’ve got one or two families, like how do you do that extra work? Is it maybe no different than work you might do for other families with other contexts?

DR. SETH HAYDEN (13:34)

Yeah, I think that there’s certainly similarities. I think, you know, when I mean, one of the things you know, sometimes I’ll have students and I’ll talk with them about what the expectations for us as counselors are, because sometimes a question emerges, and I work with someone who’s had an experience that I have not had.

Like that question emerges sometimes. And one of the things I’ll tell my students is this, I certainly hope so, because if the expectation for me as the counselor is to have had the experience all my clients and I would myself need a lot of help, because you know as counselors we encounter people who are really struggling and so I there’s no way that I can fully understand.

But that’s the skill set that we learn as counselors is, how do we engage in empathic understanding? How do we learn about their experience? How do we ask questions and explore about the way those experiences affect them?

And so I would I agree with that thought that If I’m encountering anybody who’s had a different kind of experience than me, I would use the skills I’ve learned as a counselor to explore that and think about it.

I do think that there are some good resources out there. Military OneSource has a military culture kind of training. It’s fairly consumable. I believe it’s free. The American Counseling Association has a book out. I believe it’s called Clinical Military Counseling, by Stibnecki. So there are some resources out there.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (15:03)

I have to say OneOp is a resource too.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (15:05)

OneOp is a great resource. Probably the greatest of all resources would be one up. Yeah.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (15:10)

I feel like I just basically asked you, “How do you do your job?” My question was probably so basic for you, but –

DR. SETH HAYDEN (15:16)

It was just such an obvious answer that it didn’t come to mind because kind of like, you know, what heats the earth, it’s the sun. But I wouldn’t be, you know, it’s just so obvious. So yeah, there are things out there that you can access that I also think are fairly consumable. Like I don’t have to go get a degree in military experience. Like I can tap into those things to kind of learn a little bit about it and use it in ways that hopefully will be really helpful.

But a great resource is the people that I’m working with, just as we were talking about kind of that empathic engagement to try and learn. Because even with those resources, people have their own experiences with that. So the knowledge itself is not sufficient. Like how does this person encounter? Because there are some people who serve in the military who have great pride in that and stand forth and talk about their experience with great reverence. And there are some who don’t.

There’s some who have a different experience around that. And so regardless of what knowledge I accumulate, the person in front of me still helps me understand what’s been their experience. And so I use those skills to try and learn.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (16:34)

That’s great. And you know what? I would also probably throw in there, you could have a chat, take a veteran service officer out to a cup of coffee or something and and learn a little bit there, just one meeting with them and you would have a ton of information.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (16:49)

Yeah, just one quick thing with that. Yeah. So I teach an undergraduate class on the evolution of the culture of the military. And one of the assignments that I have the students do is to interview someone who’s been impacted by the military experience.

And it is, I think, one of the more illuminating activities that we have. Even when they’ve had like a family member who they have known for a long time, when they talk specifically about that person’s military experience. I mean, time and time again, they talk about how much they didn’t know and how much they learned from that experience. So I agree with you totally.

I just want to respond that it just takes time to talk with someone about their military experience. They’ll let you know, you know, how much they’re comfortable sharing about it or not. And so, you know, just asking them, you know, “Tell me what was it like for you to serve in the military?” Like what tell me about that? And it can be really instructive, even with people that are close to you, like that direct focus on that aspect of their experience can really you can learn a lot from that.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (17:58)

Well, let’s talk a little bit about some of your work. Your research with student veterans found that translating military experience into civilian terms, resume building and negotiating offers were the top three needs. Why do you think these specific gaps, translating military experience into civilian terms, resume building and negotiating offers? Why do you think those three specific gaps are so persistent? And what works to close those gaps?

DR. SETH HAYDEN (18:25)

Yeah, I think that comes back to this cultural question because the military has very specific language. And so there are times when I’m working with people who served in the military and they share like their resume. And they’ve had incredible leadership experience in the military. But when you read it, it’s like, what is this? Like, I don’t understand some of the language.

And again, it kind of comes back to kind of unique elements of the military, which is a very specific language, acronyms, those kinds of things. The military has a lot of acronyms. So it comes from that. They’re just describing their experience using the language that they were involved with. And that makes total sense. But then to take that and give that to someone who’s a civilian hiring officer, like, okay. So we talk about it being a –

JESSICA BECKENDORF (19:14)

Like what’s PCS?

DR. SETH HAYDEN (19:16)

Yes, exactly. Yeah, that’s exactly right. And so, you know, we talk about making that translation is important, but then also more of a skills focus, like not just what you did in terms of the roles, but like what skills did you develop from that?

So that’s where I tend to focus a lot of those conversations. I think the networking thing also is kind of an element of the military context because the military tends to be a performance-based environment. So what are your capabilities that can best support a mission? And certainly every kind of human organization has an element of politics to it, but it’s also really kind of focused on your capabilities in relation to what the military is trying to do.

And so this whole thought of like social networking and connecting with people and and kind of putting yourself out there and letting people know who you are and kind of spending time doing that isn’t necessarily something that is inherent in the military as it would be within the civilian environment occupationally. So it’s like that’s a little bit of a foreign concept for them. They know it’s there, but like the skills to do that are something that can be a challenge at times.

And it’s beneficial to discuss that. I think translating it, you know, just thinking about a job offer and translating kind of your values into what that looks like, I think that’s not just specific to the military. I do think that that’s kind of a broader consideration about how do I look at competing offers and make decisions on that.

But I do think one element that is specific to the military is that there’s often a kind of a clear hierarchical ladder when you’re in the military. Like this is my rank. I want to go to the next rank. These are things I got to do to do that. I need to get more training. I need to go to officer training school. I need to do this. Whereas that kind of ladder in civilian employment is a little more

amorphous and unclear.

It’s like okay, so like I might need to go to this company. I might need to go to this company for a while and do this, but then I’ll leave that company and go do this. Obviously depending on whatever kind of occupation we’re talking about. So that can be difficult as well. Like I might get two offers and one might be more money, but one might be more opportunity. So then how do I weigh those things? Like how do I make a decision based on what I’m looking for?

JESSICA BECKENDORF (21:45)

Does the idea of loyalty fit in there like cause when you’re in the military, you know, you are loyal to your role, and then when you get out, I would imagine that the idea of like going and working someplace for a little bit and then planning to leave is kind of maybe for some a little bit odd.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (22:05)

I would say so. And that’s also been kind of even a broader societal shift. I mean, my grandfather worked at an auto company in Michigan forever. For his career. And so there’s almost been a shift in kind of societal contract between people and their employer, where I think it’s shifted now to more like transitory and transactional.

And so I do think that there’s a little bit of that. But I do think that some of those values like commitment to the organization certainly can translate into that. It may be a little more difficult for them to see that really the best thing is to divest yourself of this current opportunity in pursuit of another. But again, like my commitment to the organization is definitely something that is non-negotiable within the military, and then can be a little difficult to kind of see how that would work within a civilian context.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (23:01)

And I would also say in some ways the military is committed to you as well. And so I think you don’t find that in the Yeah. Anyway. Sorry. Go ahead, Kim.

KIM SMITH (23:14)

Well, Dr. Hayden, you spoke about networking and I wanted to circle back around to that. You have applied cognitive information processing theory to veteran job searches. Can you explain what that framework offers that perhaps generic job search advice doesn’t?

DR. SETH HAYDEN (23:32)

Yeah, it’s so I’ll call it CIP for shorthand. Cognitive processing is the theory. And so me as well as others are connected to this approach in relation to career development. And so it’s trying to develop career decision making and problem solving skills. That’s really the primary focus of the approach. It is something that you can learn. I can learn this to make effective career decisions and navigate career problems.

And so one of the things that we focus on is that process of making a career decision. Because what we know is that you will make several in your lifetime to go to the military. You decided to join the military. So that was a career decision. You had various things that influenced that decision. You will decide to leave the military. So that’s a decision. You will decide on what you’re going to do after the military.

So with CIP, what we want to do is we want to develop the skills and make decisions that align with your interest value skills that again meet your goals. That’s really kind of what we’re hoping to do. And so when I’m working with someone from a CIP perspective, it’s not just the outcome, it’s the process of getting there that we try to focus on, because I want them to learn an effective process of navigating this so that they can apply it to the next career decision.

In doing that, I think that enhances their agency, it gives them a sense of control. No matter what is going on around me, I have a clear idea of how it is that I can navigate a career decision and to deal with a problem that emerges. And then I can continually apply that over the course of my life.

And so that’s really in a nutshell what CIP is about. It also talks about kind of these thoughts that I have. So it’s not just, “I need more information.” It’s about, “How do I make decisions? Who do I talk to? What thoughts and beliefs do I have about myself in relation to this process that might be helping me, but then also might be hindering me.”

One quick example, if that’s okay. When I was younger, when I was in middle school, somewhere I got the message that I wasn’t good at math. And I’m sure it was because of my performance in math in middle school. And so when we think about that, like, how does that influence me going forward? I’m not going to be signing up for higher level math courses in high school. I’m going to look at occupations that are like as little math as possible.

And it wasn’t until I got into college that I had a corrective experience. I took a required math class, had a great professor, he talked about how you can use math to learn things about people. And that changed my perspective to where now that’s, you know, in research, I have to use a lot of math.

And I teach a research class at Wake Forest, but not everyone has that corrective experience. And so thinking about how you make decisions, what things, beliefs have influenced you as you see these things. And then as the counselor, we think about those and then we try to determine how we are going to continue to move forward, making appropriate career decisions and solving various problems in a way that aligns with your goals.

KIM SMITH (27:00)

You know, Dr. Hayden, your personal experience giving the math, I’m going to put my spouse employment hat on here for a minute.

It makes me think about so many of our military spouses that come in, and maybe they’re already feeling defeated because maybe they’ve got some, you know, employment gaps on a resume. And so they just already feel mentally defeated that they’re not even thinking they’re going to get this job. So I really understand how CIP could really, really help military spouses in that area.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (27:29)

Yeah, and as a counselor, like it’s my job, I think, to respond to what you just shared, Kim, is we need to know that. Because if I just focus on, “Well, let’s get your resume in order and not think about how are you feeling about all this?” Like what’s your experience been like –

JESSICA BECKENDORF (27:46)

Yeah.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (27:48)

Yeah, that’s right, exactly. And so I do think that that’s a really useful example of how someone’s experience can influence how they engage with their career and work.

So as a counselor, I need to pay attention to that and to kind of explore that, because it’s going to influence them. If they go in with this thought, and rightfully so, that thought often is developed through experiences that have continually reinforced it.

They go in with this thought that, “That’s not going to work for me.” And at times, unfortunately, it could be just a self-fulfilling prophecy where it won’t. And it’s not to say they should or shouldn’t feel that way. Like it comes from somewhere. And so let’s explore that.

So it’s not just about like, I need more information, you know, I’ve got to be good at interviews. It’s like, how do you see yourself in this process? And certainly the experience of the military is going to be part of influencing that. You know, if they haven’t had the experience of having to do networking, they’re not going to have a lot of confidence. They’re not going to do it well. So let’s maybe focus on the confidence as opposed to just more skills. So there’s a lot of different layers to it.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (28:57)

Well, speaking of layers, let’s talk a little bit about how, you know, earlier we talked about how there’s differences between the services and there’s differences between experiences. And you might think that something like the Vietnam War, for example, you know, “What was your experience with that?” “Well, there’s differences within the branches.”

Let’s also talk about within the military civilian divide, it sounds like it doesn’t look the same for everyone, and let’s dig into that a little bit. So, how does this show up differently for someone with maybe some additional transitions challenges, like having traumatic brain injury, or how do these differences show up differently with some of these kinds of additional challenges? That’s a big question.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (29:41)

Yeah. It’s a great question. Great question. Because I think it does when we think about some of the concerns that seem to have emerged over time. We think about the recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, the two signature wounds of those conflicts were traumatic brain injury and post-traumatic stress disorder. Now, this is not to say that everyone who served in those experiences have those things, but there does seem to be some of the injuries that people have, those are the ones that seem to really continually emerge.

And so when we think about that, it’s like it’s not just me as a person kind of navigating it. I have these related concerns from my military experience that I’m carrying forward in my life. And so as a counselor, when I think about that, I think it’s important that I consider that presenting concern again within that broader context.

And one of the things that can happen with those injuries is that people who served in the military at times will be trying to get disability associated with those injuries. And that at times can be a very difficult process, and can create some dynamics within their relation to the military, because they’re often having to advocate strongly for their needs based on their injury. And then it’s like a back and forth with trying to get a certain disability rating for benefits, which again, as you talked about earlier, like, “The organization’s going to take care of me. That’s what I’ve been told.”

And yet, “This is the injury I have. I’m trying to get my knees taken care of.” And it’s like this litigical back and forth to try and do that, which at times can create some tension, has been my experience.

And so I do think that and certainly I want there’s good information out there on dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder and different interventions, but I do think there are some unique elements of those concerns related to one’s military experience. There’s been some trauma focused work around model behavioral therapy as a way to kind of deal with very specific things.

And so yeah, there’s peer network work around having peers and connecting with others who have served in the network as an additional consideration there.

KIM SMITH (32:00)

So Dr. Hayden, in your personal experience, how do military spouses experience the military civilian divide differently than their service member does?

DR. SETH HAYDEN (32:11)

My experience has been that it’s a different orientation to that experience. So you are certainly impacted by it, similarly to the service member within your family. And at times you’re tasked with navigating it in its own unique way. And so when we think about deployments, for example, if someone who’s serving the military is deployed, meaning that they will leave for an extended period of time in relation to their military service, the military spouse often is having to reorganize the family around that absence.

And so it changes a little bit of how it is that you kind of deal with that reality. You’ve got to keep the family going, you’ve got to get things done. And then the person comes back and you have to reorient the family to that person’s presence.

And also as a military spouse, you often have your own career to think about, and how at times in the military it’s often very transitory. It’s like we’re moving every two years. We get orders, we gotta move, we get orders, you gotta move. It’s at times hard to build your career with the continual geographic changes.

And so one example comes to mind, a military spouse, she’s PhD level counselor. She really struggles to get licensed as a counselor because what you have to do is you have to go to a state, you’ve got to get a supervisor for you, you’ve got to accrue so many clinical hours for you to be able to apply for licensure in that state. And that can take some time and energy to do that.

But when you’re continually moving, it’s hard to establish yourself to get what you need to be able to do that. I do think that’s another way in which military spouses maybe have a different experience. If someone’s in the military, like that’s their career. So they’re continually doing that.

But if you’re a military spouse and it’s not your career, it’s at times hard to kind of develop those deep connections around your work and occupation to where you can establish yourself professionally. And so I do think that you’re both connected, but the experience can be very different depending on that.

KIM SMITH (34:34)

Glad you mentioned that, Dr. Hayden. It gives me a good moment to put a plug in here. Military One Source, as you mentioned earlier, is a really great resource, not just for the service member, but the spouses. But I do want to put a plug in here for SpouseWorks. It was formerly Spouse Education and Career Opportunities, but it’s now changed its name to SpouseWorks.

And that really does help that military spouse with things such as licensure, as you mentioned. When that service member deploys, what does that look like for the stay at home parent, you know, or are we looking for a career? Are we going to stay at home and raise the children?

So I’d say Military One Source and SpouseWorks are great resources for that. So thank you for bringing that up.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (35:16)

Yeah, thank you.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (35:18)

So, Dr. Hayden, you’ve argued that co-occurring career and mental health concerns need to be addressed together rather than in separate silos. I actually remember this from a pre-recording conversation that we had. I was really fascinated by the connection. I never put those two together myself. So how does the military-civilian divide make that overlap more acute?

DR. SETH HAYDEN (35:42)

I think one way that it makes it more acute is that when you think about a career in mental health and how those things are related, I think the military is a performance-oriented context. And so the thought is that the focus is on the job, the focus is on being able to do it well and to be able to perform at a high level, and to at times be reserved and asking for help.

Like I’ve got to do the job and I’m gonna focus on that, and I want to show up for the people around me because that’s what the military engenders, is that group cohesion and group performance. So if there is a struggle, there are times where people are hesitant to seek support around that. And they may not see that there’s a connection between the two of those things. And when people are within the military and they’re struggling, it can be hard for them to seek support, which then can impact their career in the military.

So, in addition to my work as faculty in the Department of Counseling, I also work with the law school at Wake Forest. And there’s a Veterans Legal Clinic. And it helps people who have had a less than honorable discharge kind of reconcile things in their record. And one of the things that has shown up is that when we look at the experience of the clients, there are often times where they were really struggling with concerns while they were in the military, which then led to their separation.

And so they were engaging in negative coping mechanisms, substance use, these kinds of things, which then the military, you know, of course, doesn’t like that. And so therefore it can lead to those kinds of things. But I think some of it is this thought of a barrier between me and the services that would benefit me.

And so there’s not always a logical connection between career and mental health and how I make that connection. And then certainly when they leave, I mean, there are times where people may join the military when they’re 18, do their 20 years, they’re 38 years old and they get out. So you see a person who has a reasonable health status and those kinds of things, there’s still some years ahead of you. And so some of the things that we talked about in terms of making that transition, and how maybe it might be a diagnosable concern like PTSD or something like that, it may not be. It might just be like relational difficulties, or I’m struggling with this kind of new context.

It may not always be clear that that’s going on with me, and how these things, like the mental health element, are influencing my career. I was just actually reading recently where a pretty significant percentage of those who get out of the military and they take their first job, leave it within a year. Like there’s something that’s not connecting with the immediate opportunity of separation.

And so I thought that was just a really interesting thought. And my curiosity is, “Okay, what is it?” Like, “What did they think they were going to be doing? And how did they make that decision of choosing that particular opportunity?” And then, “What happened to where it wasn’t satisfactory to them?”

Like it just really brought up a lot of interesting questions for me. And so I do think some of it is a lack of understanding of interest value skills. How does that translate into occupational opportunities? How do I make that transition well? All these kinds of things come together for me when I think about that connection, but then also specific to the military.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (39:23)

Well, so let’s look at this then for the professionals who support military families, but maybe they’re not clinicians themselves. Maybe it’s a community organization, someone who works there, a case manager, a family readiness staff. What’s one shift in mindset or language that might help bridge this divide more effectively?

DR. SETH HAYDEN (39:44)

I think for me, it’s to understand how each person’s experience in the military is very unique. In doing that, then I can try to learn as much as I can about people’s experience because I do think that the narratives that we often see within broader society are very simple. And they kind of have a one way of viewing the military experience, whereas we’ve been talking about there’s so many different things that influence one’s experience.

And so realizing that it’s a complex experience, not necessarily a simple way of viewing someone. And then I appreciate that at times people want to express their gratitude for those who have served. And I think there’s great value to that. And I think a way in which you can express your gratitude is what we talked about earlier, which is to explore with them what their experience was like.

And I think that can really be helpful. And what I have found for the most part is that people are willing to talk about it and appreciate the opportunity. Now, of course, there are times where there’ll be some things that they don’t want to share, but I will trust them to let me know that. And my questions will be more open ended because I do think sometimes the questions we ask are more about our curiosity rather than really wanting to know.

And so I try to ask open-ended questions. “Tell me about your military service. Which branch were you in? What was your role in the military? What was it like for you? What did you like about it? What are some things you weren’t certain about?”

Like those kinds of things can invite someone to share about their experience. Whether you’re a counselor, however you’re connected to those who are impacted by the experience, I think getting curious about it can have great benefit.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (41:37)

Yeah, I’ve I’ve sometimes thought of it like I see a lot of service members, my entire family, all of my dad and all of my uncles on the one side, grandparents on the other, have been military service members and it always feels like they have sort of one foot in one world, one foot in the other at all times, you know, civilian and military. And, you know, if we just like once in a while put a toe over there and really try to understand and ask those curious questions, really try to be curious about their story and be there with them for a minute, you know, while they tell it.

That is such a great bridge.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (42:17)

I think there’s real value to that. And I think that’s a way in which again we can invite someone to share about what it’s been like for them. We learn a great deal by doing that. Yeah.

KIM SMITH (42:30)

But I think this lends itself to the next question very well. Civilians sometimes do have that confusion. Maybe they want to say something but don’t know how to say it. Dr. Hayden, what’s a misconception about the service member transition narrative that you wish would just go away?

DR. SETH HAYDEN (42:50)

For me, when I consider that, one thing I would like for civilians to consider is that it’s a very unique experience for someone to do what people in the military are doing, no matter what their role is. Like they’ve made a decision to commit themselves fully to the experience of the military. And so there’s a lot that goes into that for the people who make the decision, people associated with that decision.

And so while certainly there’s a lot of reasons why someone makes that decision, certainly it could be patriotic, could be a great love of things, could also be the benefits that they receive from that. But when I think about the military, I’ve heard it described like this, “It’s like a one-way door. Once you go through it, you can’t go back.”

And so it’s an incredibly impactful decision that they made and experience that they’ve had. And so if I could talk to civilians, I wish they would understand the gravity of that choice and the impact of that on them and those close to them.

At times I see on social media great appreciation for those who’ve served in the military, and I think as a broader society, that’s important that we do those things. But I would say that that’s just insufficient, in my view, if that’s all we’re doing, without trying to learn and trying to understand and trying to support and to give them the things they really need, not the things we think they need.

Like what do they really need from us as a broader society and this counselor specifically? I know that’s kind of a long-winded response, but I would really like for civilians to think about the importance of what that has been for people who have served in the military to make the decision to do it. And then the broader impact of that, not only on them but also on their families.

And then we can make sure we respond accordingly as a society to their needs. That’s what I would like for people to understand.

KIM SMITH (44:52)

And you touched on it earlier, Dr. Hayden, as civilians, the more homework we can do on our end, not only does it help us, but it helps us to help them. So I really appreciate that. And in doing our homework, you know, helps them.

So Dr. Hayden, this has been so good. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and perspective with us.

DR. SETH HAYDEN (45:14)

Thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate it. And many thanks to OneOp for creating this opportunity and this conversation. My hope is this is but the beginning for some of our listeners in terms of their consideration of this topic.

And my hope is that it was helpful in some ways. But thank you again for facilitating this conversation.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (45:35)

I mean, I could go right out there and say we would love to have you back, but that’s – we’ll talk about that later!

DR. SETH HAYDEN (45:42)

Thank you.

KIM SMITH (45:44)

Well that’s it for this episode. If this conversation sparked ideas for your own work, we encourage you to share it with a colleague or partner in your network.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (45:54)

We’d love to thank again our guest, Dr. Seth Hayden, for joining us and our guest co-host, Kim Smith, for being part of today’s conversation.

KIM SMITH (46:03)

We’d also like to thank our announcer, Kaylin Gobel Mathis, Maggie Lucas, and Joyce Bond for their help with marketing, and Nathan Grimm, who composed and performed all the music you hear on the podcast.

JESSICA BECKENDORF (46:16)

And thank you for being part of the conversation. We’ll see you next time.

CREDITS: The Practicing Connection Podcast is a production of One-Op and is supported by the National Institute of Food and Agriculture, US Department of Agriculture and the Office of Military Family Readiness Policy, US Department of Defense under award number 2 0 2 3 4 8 7 74 3 3.