Applying Systems Thinking to Local Efforts

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Bob: Hi, thanks for listening to the Practicing Connection podcast. I’m Bob. My co-host Jessica is here as well. Jessica has a lot of experience working on local issues in communities. In a few minutes, we’re going to talk to her about how to bring a systems lens to those local efforts. Hey, Jessica. How are you doing?

Jessica: Hi, Bob. I’m doing pretty great today. This week because I’ve been working a lot on some very complex writing, I’ve been focusing on letting go of trying to have the same productivity routine every day. I’m having to admit that it doesn’t work for me. Everything I read tells me it’s supposed to work. You’re supposed to have a routine every day. It’s supposed to be the best thing for you. Maybe that does work for a lot of people. I don’t know, but it has never, ever worked for me. I’ve tried a lot of things over the years. I think the truth is that sometimes I just need to scroll my to-dos on a Post-it note and stick it next to my keyboard.

Then sometimes I need to track my to-dos in an app. The same thing happens to me with notes. Sometimes I really want to write with a smooth pen on really nice paper. Sometimes I want to type and tag into a notes or personal knowledge management system that uses markdown language or some other way of tagging and organizing. I’m just going to accept this [laughs], and instead build my system around what I need to collect and keep. If something gets written on paper, I’ve started adding it to my favorite notes app once a week. If it needs to be, but only if it needs to be.

Then I put a big red X on the page and I immediately put the Post-it note into the recycling bin. I know that I never have to look at it again. Sometimes I draw in my notes. I’ll take a photo of that and I’ll use that photo in place of typing the notes out. So far it seems to be working, especially with the kind of apps that allow me to do linking and back linking. It’s really helpful to see all of my related notes together over time, but I’ll probably add in other variations of this. I’m just accepting and doing what I feel like doing in the moment and just knowing that I need to sometimes keep things for later and collect them in one central area.

Bob: It sounds like it is working.

Jessica: It is so far.

Bob: I think that’s what matters. I think it just says something about expectations. Everybody tells me you need a routine. That’s just expectations and you’re doing what works for you. I think that’s great.

Jessica: Thank you.

Bob: I’ve been really inspired lately by the thinking of Myles Horton and Paulo Freire. These are two of the giants of education and social change. Paulo Freire was an educator and philosopher, and as you might know him from his best known work, Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Myles Horton might not be as well known, but he co-founded the Highlander Folk School, which is now called the Highlander Research and Education Center in Tennessee. The work of Myles Horton and his colleagues at Highlander had a big effect on the labor movement, the civil rights movement in the United States, and they continue to influence the fight for social justice.

Back in 1987, Freire, who did much of his work in Brazil and Horton, who mainly worked in the American South, met for a conversation with the intent of, quote from them, “talking a book.” The result was a book called We Make the Road by Walking, which I finished a couple of weeks ago. I’m still thinking about all the insights they shared with each other about education, and participation, and liberation. Their conversation in the book is, it feels so alive, so in the process of becoming that it seems like it might still be going on somewhere in the universe. Awesome book, We Make the Road by Walking, featuring the conversation of Paula Freire and Myles Horton. It’s been a great read.

Jessica: You like it. It also could have been titled, we make the book by talking.

Bob: [laughter] That’s true. Alternate title.

Jessica: I really love that. I love the idea of talking a book. I’m going to definitely have to check that out. I have read Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Last year I was trained on facilitating Theatre of the Oppressed, developed by Augusto Boal, who was heavily influenced by Freire’s work. Boal applied theater techniques to unveil systems of oppression and invite participation. The participation piece is really a beautiful way for people to come together and experiment with different ways of being together, like reimagining new possibilities for the world.

I’d love to see it incorporated into public input processes more because, as you describe, it’s so alive, that idea of participation and the way that they think about it and do it. I can’t wait to check that book out.

Bob: We’d love to hear what’s inspiring you. Please share your current inspiration by clicking the send us a text message link at the top of the description of this episode. When you click the link, your text messaging app will open and you’ll see a seven-digit number and the words do not remove. Type your message after that and click send. Don’t remove that number or we won’t receive your message. To protect your privacy, we won’t see your phone number and we can’t text you back, but we’ll share your feedback on a future episode. If you’re listening on a computer, you can email us right now at [email protected]. Let us know what’s inspiring you.

Jessica: Right now.

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Bob: Jessica, a couple of episodes ago, we talked about the community capitals framework, which brings a systems lens to community development. By that, I mean [chuckles] that it recognizes that there are multiple factors that influence community development and that those factors are interconnected in some way. That might seem obvious to some people. I’m wondering, given all your experience helping people address local issues, whether the groups you’ve worked with already recognize that local issues have multiple interconnected factors or not, was a systems lens obvious to any of the groups that you worked with?

Jessica: This is a really great question because it really depends on the group and what they’re coming together around. At least with my experiences, some groups have been hyperfocused on generating more traffic for the local businesses, for example. They might tap into things like event planning, but don’t think about how that could also have a positive impact on social capital, and that having more eyes on the built capital in the area might affect decisions on how the community’s political body might spend resources, like starting a facade improvement program, for example.

There’s nothing wrong with being hyperfocused on generating more traffic for the local businesses and not thinking about those other things. There’s nothing wrong at all with focusing on one goal, but there could be some secondary goals that you could design for, like how can you design for more interaction between the businesses and the people attending the events? How can you strengthen the relationship versus just getting people physically nearby the businesses?

Other groups, and I would say I’ve seen this particularly when those that are coming together are working to address a health-related issue, whether that’s mental health, homelessness, social isolation, or some other community health concern, or food systems, they seem to have an awareness of systems and the interconnections that you’re talking about. These groups can still experience blind spots, but overall, they’ve been aware. Now, that’s just been from my experience. Other parts of the nation, other people who do this work, there’s probably a whole slew of answers you could get for this. [laughs]

Bob: That’s really interesting. One of the things that we build groups of like-minded people, hopefully that’s what we have here in Practicing Connection in terms of the folks who listen to the podcast, and of course, you and I, and everybody who has partnered and has contributed to the podcast. We feel like a little community. I just wonder about it because I think then we make assumptions, either one way or the other. Maybe we make assumptions like, “Oh, everybody has to be able to see this,” or maybe we make assumptions that, “Oh, people who are not like us can’t see this,” or something, you know what I mean.

I think it’s really interesting to hear your experience and see that it’s been multiple ways. I know, obviously, I just talked about how we share some similar points of view around this. I’m assuming, in some cases, you might have wanted to bring some systems thinking to the table. I’m wondering, what was the most challenging part of trying to do that, to bring systems thinking to these local efforts that you were helping with?

Jessica: Wanted to, attempted to, was shut down sometimes. [laughs] From my experience, it has been the aspect of co-creating solutions with the people most affected. I’ve seen many groups of well-meaning, very caring people get together and want to create positive change. They might have some conversations, they might end up developing some group norms. They might have several meetings together, and through even just having those meetings, they start to develop these norms. Even if they don’t talk about them, they might even choose some possible approaches that they plan to take together. Those are all wonderful things. When they’re asked about how they’ve engaged with the people most affected by the issue or how they’ve engaged with others that are not present, there can be a significant amount of pushback. I’ve had very significant pushback in the past. I’ve had others say, “Oh, good question. We didn’t mean to be exclusive.” I’ve seen this pushback, particularly when they’ve been asked about engaging with every audience, pretty much from low income populations.

How are you engaging with them? They’re most affected by this with racially and ethnically diverse populations. Even the guy that owns the tattoo parlor downtown with the strange window displays, sometimes I’ve seen a glimmer of understanding. They know they need to engage more with others, but they aren’t sure how and maybe lack the will to sometimes because they’re judging the other person, even when they’re trying to resist judgment. I like to use the example of the guy with the tattoo parlor because that’s something that I’ve actually seen in several different occasions.

The store that’s a little bit edgy, that has edgy displays, they’re really making a judgment on how that person has chosen to run their business and how that person is trying to attract people who would come to their business. A lot of times they’re not sure how to get beyond the things that are pulling them back, including their own judgment, even when they’re willing. The other part of this that I started to talk about a little bit ago is that this group of well-meaning thoughtful people get together, they start to choose that path forward before they’ve done much engaging.

They might have done a survey, but that’s not the same as relationship building and committing to the struggle. Ignoring the guy with the tattoo parlor just adds to the division. Ignoring the relationship work and doing things for people versus with them further exacerbates differences and doesn’t work toward liberation.

Bob: As we’re trying to move groups forward, are there specific tools or processes that you’ve used in groups to move them towards a systems approach or a more liberated structure?

Jessica: I think any tool or process that will help people have more understanding for each other and more understanding for how an issue affects different people is going to be really, really useful. One thing I didn’t say as we were talking a minute ago is that when I have seen pushback because a group is trying to positively affect or create some positive change, for instance, a low-income population. When you bring up like, “Oh, how are we going to engage with this population?” Sometimes you hear things like, “Well, but this issue doesn’t really have a face that affects all of us at one point in our lives or something like that.”

You hear things like that. I think anything that helps people understand how an issue affects different people who have had different backgrounds, and different upbringings, and different cultural and social experiences is going to be really great. There are many tools that do this. I’m going to share an unconventional one that I’ve adapted from someone whose work I admire very much and who we’ve had as a guest on this podcast, Bjorn Peterson. He developed the cycle of praxis for community development. I always tell him it has a terrible name, sorry Bjorn, it has a terrible name, but it’s a super simple process.

It sounds very fancy, but it’s a beautiful, simple process. I pair the idea of having everyone gathering about an issue, share their lived experience, which is at the start of the cycle of praxis. I pair that with different variations of activities from Applied Improv called Story Circles, which are also beautifully simple practices, which allows some space and time for everyone in the circle to share their story without interruption, or questions, or judgment. Here’s the simplest version I’ve used of this activity, but there’s a few others that I think are wonderful for moving past understanding and getting toward action.

We’re going to start with the first one. Have everyone sit in a circle if possible. Then you’re going to want to call out, identify the need that you’re coming together around. Usually if you’re having a meeting with people, there’s a purpose that you’re having that meeting for. Talk about the purpose, the issue that you’re coming together around and then have each person get a few minutes to share a story about their personal experience with the issue. How has it affected them personally? You’d probably want to ask it more personally, like share a story about your personal experiences with this issue. How has it affected you personally?

After everyone has a chance to share, and mind you, there’s no asking questions. People are just listening to each other, no asking questions, no comments, side conversations. It is quiet, people are sharing. After everyone has had a chance to share, collaboratively articulate two things. What diversity exists among these lived experiences? What similarities exist? Take a look at those things, write them up on a board, or papers, or however you want to do it. Take a look at those lists and then ask, is there someone whose experience needs articulation, but who is currently not present? Who is this?

How can we successfully invite their participation into this process? It’s not how can we successfully get them to participate, get them to join our effort. How can we successfully invite their participation in this process? Finally, you’re going to analyze whether having heard all of these lived experiences, how you might need to rearticulate that need that you identified at the top before everyone shared their stories. How do you need to articulate that? How do you need to describe it?

Be willing to adjust this also as you gain more participation and learn more about the lived experiences of others. If everyone in the room is coming from a fairly similar background and you start to gain more information about how your issue affects other people, be willing to tinker with the need. It is actually a really simple process, but it’s definitely full of complexity in that everyone’s rich stories have a chance to be part of creating the solutions.

Speaker: That’s it for this episode. Thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, click the share button in your podcast app to share it with a friend. We hope you will join us next week. Until then, keep practicing.

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Kalin Goble: The Practicing Connection podcast is a production of OneOp and is supported by the National Institute of Food and Agriculture, US Department of Agriculture, and the Office of Military Family Readiness Policy, US Department of Defense under Award Number 2023-48770-41333.

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